So today I went to a Christian medics meeting on the ethics of IVF.
IT
WAS
SHOCKING
my word! I had no idea how messed up their thinking is !
With these evangelical Christians everyone just makes up their own truth based on their own personal opinion and what they think is right! Everyone interprets the Bible in whatever way they want, and then hey presto, that's enough.
and they think it makes sense to do it like that!!!
They have no concept that it is possible to know the absolute truth!
The leader of the group kept saying stuff like "As you can see, there are lots of different opinions regarding when life starts. You just have to decide what is best for you, and then practice as a doctor based on that."
I was like...."WHAT?!!!!" (in my head!) (although I think I did pull a few distorted faces!)
and everyone there was supposed to be Christian!!
I thought that we would at least be able to agree on when life begins, if nothing else!!
(they are gonna hate me when the 'contraception' talk comes up in a few months!)
and then everyone was saying stuff like;
"There is no actual Bible quote about IVF, so we can't know what God wants..."
"There is no actual Bible quote that explicitly says when life begins, so we can't know for certain..."
?!!!!
Yeh, well, when you've ditched the authority of the Rock, Peter, whom Christ established to guide and lead all people throughout time what do you expect.
I was so torn between being uber frustrated and just wanting to screetch out "But of course life starts at conception!! IVF is horrendously sinful for a plethora of reasons and we know this because God's Church (the Catholic Church) was promised the Holy Spirit to correctly interpret Scripture and correctly apply it to all situations of faith and morals that may arise throughout history!"
but then I so pitied them! How horribly lost and confused they all are; making up their own truths and noone actually having a clue! They have no authority on anything!
Every moral opinion was as right as every other, even if they clashed! How can that make sense to them?! How can 'yes' and 'no' be simultaneously accepted as answers?!
Unless the Bible explicitly says one sentence about something like "THOU SHALT NOT LIE"- they seem unable to interpret the core teachings of Scripture to apply to new situations not explicitly mentioned in the Bible (e.g. IVF).
and you should've seen the looks I got when I started on the wrongness of mastrubation (which is how the sperm are obtained for IVF) They clearly thought I was insane! The speaker even called the idea that it was sinful 'an old Victorian idea'.
It is so ironic really because these evangelicals consider themselves as Bible based, and they don't understand the first thing about Scripture!
I started trying to explain the meaning of Natural Law, and one guy said very calmly "Antonia, we get out teaching from Scripture, not from looking at Nature!"
I think I have been way too spolit with holy intelligent Catholic friends. We go to discussion groups, people say what they think on a topic, which is usually based on a poor understanding of scripture, and a bit of opinion, like the evangelicals today,
BUT....the MAJOR DIFFERENCE IS...we then get CHURCH TEACHING on the subject.
which has AUTHORITY.
from GOD.
Flowing from eternal Bible truths, inpreted with the aide of the Holy Spirit through holy men and women over the last 2000 years.
With faith and morals the Catholic Church always has an answer; God's answer
("You are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my Church." Follow the Pope's teaching on faith & morlas and you can't go far wrong!).
It was so sad with these Evangelicals, because their answer is based on a confused mass of personal opinion and poorly understood Scripture. How horribly stressful it must be to always have to make up your own truth and to feel like you can never actually know what God's teaching is!
and what a bizzaire situation it must be in that both you and your evanagelical friend can have 2 totally opposite opinions on the same moral matter and yet accept both with ease:
"Oh, okay you think life starts at about 16 days. Okay fine. good for you. You can prescribe the morning after pill then. I think life starts at fertilisation, but I will probably prescribe it anyway because I don't want to hurt people's feelings."
Honestly! That was some of the gist of it!
I was, am still am, so shocked at their lack of moral guidance. If you think it's right, then it's right for you. If I think the same thing is wrong, then that's fine for me. and they are just comfortable with that idea!
What about GOD people?!! Is noone interested in seeing what HE actually thinks and then doing that?!!
"Oh, but God doesn't say explicitly when life begins in the Bible so we can never know"
WHY would God not guide us in everything?!!
Why would He not establish a Church that teaches His truths?!!
HE DID!
Facing situations like this just make me even more determined to do what I know is right. How few people do Jesus's will; let us make sure that we are one of them, and that we stick up for His truths fearlessly and strive to grow ever more in love with Him!
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13 comments:
Hey Antonia !
I'm totally with you on this subject. I sometimes visit 'Christian' forums and get the same impression. It's so disappointing to realise that we can't get together with those Evangelicals to share Christ's truth with the world, just because they themselves won't accept it in its entirety, still calling themselves 'Christian'.
And yes, it must be horrible to belong to a community of people who proclaim that they believe what the Bible say, but still live according to their own, personnal truth.
I'm so thankful to Our Father, because He has blessed me with a wonderful family, school and parish that have educated me in the true Faith !
Antonia, it's important you stay with this group and influence them.
Also, they're talking nonsense. American evangelicals are VERY pro-life and obviously these Christians are bible Christians too. Perhaps you should look up some literature from these groups and see what sort of quotes they use.
AND don't forget there are practical reasons why we should oppose IVF - it's just a money-making scheme for rich Drs, and it does nothing to SOLVE infertility problems.
Thanks for that Antonia, got me thinking about a few things, which is always worth doing. My conclusion?
Pic'n'mix theology =/= a good idea.
Hey guys! thanks for your comments! Yeh, it is a major shame, both for them and for ecumenicism as a whole
(just to point out one thing from frbreviary's post....the Catholic Church doesn't recognise 'Anglo-Catholics' as being part of the Catholic Church. They are a group of Anglicans who say they are also Catholic. But Catholics see them as have schismed off the Church.
Sorry FrB...I just wanted to correct that so Catholic blog readers don't get confused!)
Antonia,
It's no wonder these Protestants gave you weird looks when you raised the subject of masturbation.
Luther, father of protestantism, was addicted to that sin.
Gabriel von Eyb
Interesting post - thank you. Just one point on your response to frbreviary's comment. Anglo-Catholics are recognised as such (i.e. as Catholics with valid orders etc.) by Old Catholics - who in turn are recognsied by Rome.
Best wishes,
Campion's fan
Hello Campion's fan. Thanks for your comments.
I have no idea who "Old Catholics" are, and have never heard of them.
In fact, a quick google search led me to this site:
http://www.oldcatholic.co.uk/
which states on its front page:
"Today, however, the Catholic Church is comprised of five sister congregations: Old Catholic, Roman Catholic, Anglican Catholic/Episcopalian, Eastern Catholic (or Eastern Orxthodox) and Oriental"
That is of course, a complete load of nonesense.
The 'Old Catholic' (like 'Anglo Catholics') are a group who rejected many of the fundemental Truths of the Catholic Church, and so broke off it, but claim that they are actually part of it.
There is only one Catholic Church. This Church is led by the Pope and comprises of two equally valid Rites; the Western Rite (aka: The Roman Church) and the Eastern Rite.
(nb: The Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church is not the same as the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox schismd off the Catholic Church in the year 1054)
sorry...but the so-called "Old Catholics" are not recognised by Rome!
(and in a sense why should they be?! THEY don't recognise the authority of the Pope, so it's silly to say that therefore Pope recognises them!!)
hi antonia- first timer here!
from what you say about your meeting, it sounds all wishy washy stuff was said there and that is indeed very sad.
However, it is wrong to assume that because one group of people who are not sure of what they believe is reperenstative of everyone-no? I am a non catholic christian and I take the bible as being the whole sufficient truthful word of God. I believe that by prayer and studying of the word, you can find understand the word perfectly.
There are non wishy washy people out there you know! Here are some uncompromising teachings:
www.gty.org
have a listen/read
Hi
Thanks for your response. I'm afraid I didn't express myself very clearly.
Old Catholics are considered by Rome to have valid orders. Old Catholics regard Anglican orders as valid. Indeed Old Catholic bishops have participated in Anglican ordinations thereby arguably conferring valid orders.
Incidently - I agree the website you found on Old Catholics isn't up to much. There are some better sites and references out there from Roman Catholic sources containing details of Rome's teaching on the validity of Old Catholic orders. I haven't got them to hand but will try and look up the details.
with all good wishes,
campion's fan
To Campion's fan...
well, I have never heard of such a thing before, and it all sounds very suspicious to me.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11235b.htm
shows that a large number of people who started off the Old Catholic movement were excommunicated by various Archbishops and a Pope....so I'm not entirely convinced that they have valid orders!!
If you show me a Catholic source which says they do, I'll believe you!
(actual Catholic source..not 'anglo-Catholic' or 'Old Catholic' or 'new reformed universal Catholic' or anything!!)
Hi Antonia,
Fr Sean Finnegan has a very good post dated 30/9/06 on the subject of Old Catholic orders including the issue of validity/efficacy at his blog: www.valleadurni.blogspot.com.
"Off line" the Catholic Dictionary by Donald Attwater also deals with this point.
best wishes,
Campion's fan
The bible is a guide to lead the right way of life. Everything is a choice in life, whether it is right or wrong God will forgive you. I am catholic and go to a catholic school, but also people in my family have had children born to IVF and to see how happy my family is to have these children, i wouldn't change it for the world , even if i believed it was wrong. and if put in the same position , i would also choose IVF.
Hey Anonymous,
Thanks for your comments.
Just a few things:
" Everything is a choice in life, whether it is right or wrong God will forgive you."
I am sorry, but you are very much mistaken.
Souls go to Hell every day. Jesus told us so. God won't forgive anyone if that person knowingly sins and doesn't repent.
God doesn't force His forgiveness onto us.
We have to accept it.
and how can we accept forgiveness if we don't acknowledge that we have sinned?
The fact that families are happy with their children concieved via IVF, doesn't in any way mean that IVF is an ethically acceptable process.
It is illogical to judge the morality of an act by simply looking at whether people are 'happy' it took place.
Some people out there are happy Sepetember 11th took place; doesn't mean September 11th was right.
Creating life in a dish, then destroying it, and treating it simply as a commodity and something that can be divorced from God and from the sexual act, can never be right....no matter how happy we are about it.
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